Edit: This is an argument against extreme metalheads, which I'm sure won't impinge on anyone here.

Hmmm, well after persistingly and open mindedly being exposed to it for many years I think it's safe to say it's not for me :). However, I agree with you about metal fans being of higher intellegence and creativity than most. I myself would place this down to the feelings of alienation from the general public that intellect brings - some people are more sensitive to other people's opinions than others, and that's why they need agressive music to reject those opinions. The BBC article you posted points out that metal fans are of low self esteem. It's interesting though, as I have always been in that category, and yet have never found solace in agressive music. But then I've always abhored reactionary thinking - anarchism, communism, pacifism, puritariaism, equalitarianism etc... Your description of it being about 'not compromising your values and beliefs for anyone or anything' is also my view of it; and why I dislike it. I've known, and befriended, A LOT of metalheads through the years; who generally had a hard time admitting they're wrong, and had difficulty understanding other points of view. The more intellegent and unique one's were also the most narrow minded and isolated. In my experience, agressive music like this encourages maladaptation - in the sense of rejecting everything one disagrees with and an inability to progress in life for fear of compromising the values born of a reaction against life itself.

Individuals like us are isolated from the pack early on, and often bullied as a result. As a defence mechanism we label the pack's behaviour as 'bad', and celebrate our own failure as another thing entirely. I went through a similar phase myself, and still struggle to admit any weakness or fault on my part. I believe agressive music stems from this - the need to react against that which causes us pain and thus denying ourselves the chance of coming to terms with it. Obviously this will make one at ease with oneself, as there's no self-doubt or existence of anything to cause it. The political content of metal I've been exposed to has always been reactionary and over-the-top, often about moral concepts like equalitarianism, communism, bringing down institutions and businesses, and anti-capitalism - all of which are the exact opposites of what isolated under-achievers and victims feel threatened by.

As far as complexity goes, I agree that some of it is very interesting - at least on sheet music! Keep in mind that I've listened to all corners of this stuff, so am aware of how big it is. However, at the risk of being more cynical, a desire for complex music (often for it's own sake) correlates with the need to do the exact opposite of the people who rejected us. In some sense a celebration of individual freedom, and in a darker sense an opportunity to look down on other music genres due to the association of complex music with intellegence and sophisticaiton. This would make sense to me, as much of the harmonic complexities I've found in metal subgenres speak more of deliberate structural and melodic breakdown rather than a seeking of a more beautiful alternative like classical and jazz fusion do. Aka complexity for it's own sake, and the sake of putting it into an elitist category where the listenners can scorn those who once scorned them.

What's ironic is much of my (very) cynical view of the genre is born of me being threatened by it's existance. Even more ironic is that it is popular enough to be considered mainstream, to the extent that me going off to listen to hyper melodic stuff (which I consider an opposite) may itself be purely reactionary!

Please note though that I am quite fond of the songs I posted, so it's not like I don't give the music a chance. It's just one of those genres, like pop, that I struggle to find music I like within :). Also note that I have a lot of friends who like metal, so the above wasn't intended as an insult. Afterall, I'm only arguing in extremes (how ironic).

It's not really against metal, I just saw some misconceptions again :P, but then I would need to read your full posts :U....let's call it a DRAW.

Long posts ftw.

I'm reminded of Blaise Pascal: "I did not have time to write you a short letter, so I have written you a long one instead."

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auriplane said

I'm reminded of Blaise Pascal: "I did not have time to write you a short letter, so I have written you a long one instead."

Story of my life.

Jackasses, metal isn't about anger. Thats the generic media BS.

Metal is the most wide genre of music today. It's one of the few genres next to jazz that allow the guitar

to have an actual voice. It's also the closest written in the classical style.

Wintersun - Starchild

Metal also has the most difficult written passages ever.

Wintersun - Winter madness solo

Angra - Temple of hate

Nightwish- the wayfarer

Sonata arctica - san sebastion

Adagio - sanctus Ignis

Equilibrium - Mana - Frigin epic

Equilibrium - Blut Im Auge

Eluveitie - Calling the Rain

Epica - sensorium

This topic sure needs more Nostromo

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OP and his fiance might both appreciate this fairly recent wave of post-rock-shoegaze-black-metal...stuff:

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Hope she knows how to singalong in French!

Not sure about you all, but I don't listen to metal to vent or feed off of angry feelings/subject material. I tend to like the slow-moving, atmospheric kind of metal and enjoy it because it can sometimes sound very beautiful.

Obviously everyone forms their opinions based on past experiences, so I can't assume that you've listened to Neurosis or Gojira, Bhael hehe

Neurosis and Gojira are my two favorite metal bands!!!!

2 prime examples of each:

Gojira- The Link

Gojira- The Art of Dying The part 6 mins in makes the hair on my arms stand up.

Neurosis- Purify They're the originators of Sludge Metal. More so Gods of it hehe

Neurosis- Locust Star

Barely scratching the surface though man.

They definitely are angry and disappointed with Humanity haha

Both put lyrics on the back-burner for the most part, but the messages are usually pertaining to being against the "modernistic strive" of more construction more technology for more people.

DESTROYING THE EARTH !!!!!!! BAHHHHHHHH

woops hehe =^.^=

I agree that the cookie-cutter agressive metal, whether it be melodic, thrash or death metal, is a steaming pile of shit!

All that complexity for the sake of being complex BS.

Here's an odd metaphor: You can't say duck hunting is easy when all you've shot we're maimed ones.

If you can still say you don't like Neurosis or Gojira then it's just not your slice o' pie. To each their own :-)

Of course, I'm sure you gave it a chance and you seem like the type of non metalhead that I have no problems getting along with - I hope my post didn't seem angry or defensive, I just wanted to address some perceived misconceptions I saw in your post. I'm pretty sure you're the same way (making this sentence unnecessary) , but I enjoy friendly debates about things like this. I don't look down on anyone (or at least I know I shouldn't, haha) for not liking the metal I like, just as I don't look down on people for preferring a different style of cuisine or art. Metal heads tend to appreciate the open minded and respectful way you've stated your beliefs.

I guess the first thing I'd like to talk about in response to your post is the idea that metal heads tend to be close minded, stubborn people. This is true in some cases, hell, maybe even a lot of cases. What you have to consider is the fact that metal heads were open enough to give metal a chance when the average person rejects it outright based on the societal stigma attached to the genre. Personally, I strongly disagree with the idea that metal promotes maladaptation - if anything, it encourages you to explore multiple viewpoints on life, even if they are extreme. Metal promotes a healthy level of skepticism with conventional ideas (if it does promote anything at all. Personally, I don't think that's the point of the music).

I think that there might be some truth to the idea that metal can serve as a reaction against "the masses", but people with this juvenile mindset tend to grow out of metal once they finish adolescence. What I think draws in a lot of intellectuals are the themes I mentioned in my last post that metal explores - impersonal, "big picture" topics that stand in stark contrast to the generic ego dramas that make up so much of popular music.

Ah, the old "metal is complex for complexity's sake" argument. While there are some technical bands that just wank on guitar to compensate for mediocre songwriting coughdragonforce, isn't it a bit close minded to say that if the music is complex and chaotic sounding, that it must have been a deliberate decision on the part of the songwriters to make unintelligible, meaningless music in order to inflate their own self esteem and that of their listeners? Many of the most captivating and interesting pieces of music I've heard have been written by technical death metal bands. The melodies and textures they use are so, I don't even know, vivid maybe? That it's almost like I can see or feel the atmosphere of the music (going back to the idea of a musical narrative I described earlier). The fact that you hold this idea shows (with all due respect) that you probably haven't explored the genre nearly as much as you think you have.

It's definitely true that metal draws in elitists - it's a bit of a running joke in the metal community. I myself have some elitist tendencies my friends like to tease me about. However, these people (head-up-their-ass elitists) are definitely a minority, as you stated in your post, and they're easily picked out by other metal heads. That being said, some of the metalheads who would be considered "elite" are some of the most intelligent and musically knowledgeable people I've ever come across. They listen to a wide variety of music, spanning jazz, trance, classical, and many more, without dismissing anything based on it's label(I can't claim to be so enlightened, lol. While I occasionally dabble in other things like jazz, funk, or rap, metal and classical comprise like 90% of what I listen to and play on guitar) . I feel that metal appeals to people who search for substance or soul in their music, as opposed to catchiness or a pleasing aesthetic.

To summarize, I think one of the reasons the uncompromising nature of metal appeals to intellectuals is because smart people tend to spend a lot of time analyzing issues from as many points of view as they can think of - which can be a tiring experience. The self-assured, driven nature of metal can provide a welcome respite (though as I said, I'm pretty sure nobody listens to metal just for these philosophical reasons - there are plenty of bands I like who have mediocre or bad lyrics but great instrumentation) Of course, I can't speak for all metal heads, and I've probably made plenty of logical or argumentative errors in my posts that don't do the genre or its fans justice.

It's not bad that Parhelion. Certainly not metal; decent post-rock/minimalist music right there.

"I tend to like the slow-moving, atmospheric kind of metal" - what about the slow-moving, atmospheric none-metal? :)

Gio - There's a difference between anger and agression. I never said it was angry. In fact, it's physiologically impossible for the average metal listener to be angry all the time he's/she's listening to music.

I fail to understand how playing loudly at high tempos with noisy drumming and fuzzy/grungy/distorted/screeching instruments CAN'T be called agressive. If you aren't listening to it for it's agressive quality, then why not listen to music that does EXACTLY the same things without all the 'agression'? And am I not the only one who's getting sick of the guitar having 'actual voice'? We've been hearing the same shit for decades now; it won't hurt to have a change in timbre. When you choose to listen to metal over music with exactly the same harmonic/melodic qualities you are choosing a faster tempo and agressive ensemble - imo at the expense of timbre variation (something that's sadly overlooked in most genres). That Starchild is a great example. Take away the screeching vocals, repetitive drums, fart noises/distorted guitar, random groans and complete lack of instrumental variety and you'll have a very basic post modern study on baroque music. Joke :P.

iamHoustonian - That Neurosis band doesn't seem too bad, but they're still metal so it's a no-no for me :). They are more experimental than most metal I've heard, so props for that.

Choogly - I didn't mean any offence either. I'm just speaking from experience. I don't think metal PROMOTES maladaptation, but I do think it causes it. Pretty much all of the people I've known who actively listen to metal have had some kind of failing in one aspect of life or another - that isn't a problem, as we all have our failings. The problem is that those same people seek to cover up their weaknesses as strength, and I think metal helps them there. Of course that is a universal human trait, but I find it more so with listeners of this music.

It's tricky arguing for and against our musical opinions, as we risk offending eachother. But I'll continue anyway ;). I personally find metal, while seeking to explore big concepts, actually ends up simplfying them. It is my belief that people are attracted to this side of metal because it offers simple solutions to life - to help them better cope with it.

I'll admit that I'm out on one leg on the complexity argument, as although I've listened to a lot of complex metal the agressive structure often makes it hard for me to pick up the music behind it. Despite this, it is still my opinion that the more complex metal variations don't have the same depth of harmonic progression of other genres of similar complexity. That, alongside my cynical view of extreme metalheadic tendencies, leads me to think it's complexity for it's own sake. But if you get something out of the actual music on a similar level to the great composers of the 19th century then maybe I'm missing something afterall :).

That's interesting what you say about elitist metalheads. That isn't my experience at all; the one's I've encountered, while possessing a lot of knowledge, have a very simple view of things. However, I 100% agree with you that some metalheads are very musically open minded; though they always seem to come back to the agressive side of music, interestingly. Perhaps they listen to the other genres in a different way? I don't know.

I also agree that metal can be a gateway into the realm of intellectualism; in the same way that spiritual practise can lead to understanding of deep sciences. It's a great way to introduce basic concepts that are generally considered abstract. But for me, I see it as a means to an end; not an end in itself :).

Bhael said

It's tricky arguing for and against our musical opinions, as we risk offending eachother. But I'll continue anyway ;)

You can do that, but it's kind of off-topic in this thread. You could start a "why I look down on metal and people who listen to it" thread, I guess...

auriplane said

Bhael said

It's tricky arguing for and against our musical opinions, as we risk offending eachother. But I'll continue anyway ;)

You can do that, but it's kind of off-topic in this thread. You could start a "why I look down on metal and people who listen to it" thread, I guess...

There's already 654654321861854798654158676485438743546841321463313246854346854 threads like that on the web...